bumping, jumpig engine, any ideas??

[Mark H]

Have you taken the bike and had it run up on a dyno?

[sheridan]

I havent had it dyno'd yet, but i fear that carb models are not computer controlled so may be of little use? correct me if im wrong?

I do have a theory however.....what if me and harko both bought bikes that were made on a friday afternoon by the apprentice "Laddie"?

That could be what is wrong with them, 

[Harko]

That's where it should be when riding normally. Does it sill like the "surging" is still there when riding it with the temperature guage at halfway ??

I was hoping that I could go on a ride around Berks today and get the bike up to temp to see how she behaves other than motorway/commuting - but the wife has put her back out meaning that I need to do the chores (shopping/dinner/housework/kids) before I start shift work tonight. I won't have the chance to take her out on a ride till after Xmas (The VARA that is... not the wife ). When I have the chance, I will see how she behaves temp wise and get back with an update.

So, my plan is to strip the big ba****d down, take the carbs out and inspect them for any seals that may be broken, loose whatever.

This has crossed my mind too. The Honda garage have apologised for not getting to the bottom of it by giving me a good will letter for ?200 against the next service covering parts and labour.  I think they are as frustrated as I am.  TBH, I don't want to give up - I want to keep the bike for at least 4 years if I can before getting something much newer. Everything else is great - but I just need to get the bottom of this surging. Slow riding i.e. town riding/commuting is a PITA.

There are several carb refurb companies in Motorcycle news - I might give one a call later and see what it will cost to get them fully overhauled. Maybe I can then use the letter against having the carbs removed/replaced at the Honda garage and get them to ship them to get them refurbished at a specialist carb centre. If it then turns out to be the carbs - I might then see about getting the cost of refurb back from Honda.

Let me know how you get on, and i'll keep you posted as to my success.

I will.  Any news and I will post here

Have you taken the bike and had it run up on a dyno?

Not Yet.  There is a dyno place towards Oxford - I might give them a call later to see what they say and see if getting the bike on the dyno will help diagnose the problem/problem area. (That is if they can do anything with carb'd bike)

...I do have a theory however.....what if me and harko both bought bikes that were made on a friday afternoon by the apprentice "Laddie"?...

Shouldn't that be Pedro?



Regards,

Harko

[Mark H]

Dyno's existed a long time before fuel injection!!!

I believe most emmisions are checked at the type of rev raneg you're having particular problems with. Manufacturers accordingly tend to leave a bit of a gap at that point. Perhaps there is a setup/tuning issue exacerbating this.

TTS at Silverstone have a good reputation for tuning bikes ( a friend has a 160 bhp bandit that he drag races that was tuned by them)

http://www.tts-performance.co.uk/

[jp]

Dyno's existed a long time before fuel injection!!!...............

indeed they did, although hooking up to this one might be a problem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Prony_brake

[Harko]

  Ok... went to see the Honda dealer today - told them that I am thinking of rejecting the bike as I am concerned that the problem will not be sorted and may in the long run cost me a ton of money to get to the bottom of it. Unfortunately we didn't get to discuss much as just as I arrived, the area had a power cut and everything was in total darkness  (just my luck! )

The service manager told me that their main techie is on a Honda training course  till Friday and that they wish to get back to me on Friday afternoon after they have had chance to escalate to the Honda technical centre.

Whats more...  I had to tell them that this morning I had to travel home without indicators as they refused to work!! :tickedoff: Well I should rephrase this and say that 10% of the time they came on - but when they did it was mostly after a variable delay. When they did fail to turn on, sometimes I could hear the relay clicking (fast) and sometimes I couldn't hear the relay at all (it was obviously too cold for them this morning!!!). Hopefully it will not be too much of a problem to get sorted.

Unfortunately I can't see me getting the bike to them until Friday and then I will be back to peddlepower again for a few days (or weeks??) At least I will be able to burn off the Xmas excesses 

Till later ...

Harko

[Harv]

Without telling you how to run your personal business i suggest a massive inclination to the legality and safety aspects should be heavily emphasised in all your contact. follow up discussions and calls with written confirmations using lines such as 'as previously discussed' .... 'my main concerns are...' ....should there be legal implications that affect my ability to work' .... 'should there be an accident as a result of...' and of course...'responsibility of liability now that these faults have been reported'

[Harko]

Harv,

Thanks for this... I did start out thinking that all would be resolved fairly quickly. But only now do I realise that things are dragging on a bit tool long. My confidence in the bike is at an all time low. I did not envisage things dragging on so I have not really documented anything thus far.

To cut to the chase ... my wife works for solicitors that do (among other things) a lot of work for the Retail Motor Industry and often act for both the RMI and clients rejecting vehicles (of all kinds).  Legal advice has already been sought. Although I have up to 6 months to reject the bike, I do have to make up my mind pretty quickly (the sooner the better). The only fly in the ointment is the fact that I have been willing to allow the dealer to try to effect repair.

With regards to our latest contact (this afternoon) the service dept have told me that they are willing to have the bike back anytime to continue investigation of the original stuttering problem and the new indicator fault but due to Xmas and staff holidays, they are really not in a postion to work on it till Jan 4th (workshop is fully booked out).  This of course is not acceptable and I need to get the bike back to them ASAP (Saturday at a guess as the wife need to follow me down in the car) - and push hard to get both faults resolved before Xmas.


Even though I have these problems, to be fair, the dealer for their part have listened to what I has complained about, taken the bike back several times for investigation/parts replacement and even replaced the rear pads and disk when they identified it as having a slight warp (never part of my original complaint). The last time they 'thought' they had solved the stuttering they gave me a voucher for ?200 to use against my next service.  Never once have I felt that they are misguiding me or trying to fob me off. So in a nut shell...at the time of writing, would I do business with them again... absolutely. In my 25 years of driving I have come across my fair share of dodgy dealers - and these definitely don't need to be blacklisted (yet  )

Regards,

Harko

PS>  Just a though...if I can get the time before the weekend, there are a couple of other independent service agents in the area where I might take the bike for a second opinion - just to add weight to my case should I reject the bike.

[Sdapeze]

Stop using kangaroo petrol.

[Dee Dub]

Sorry to come into this so late, and even more so if none of the following help!  A few observations:

1. They don't all do that. Mine, and others I've test ridden, are quite smooth.
2. 3000-4000 rpm isn't low. Mine will trickle along quite happily at 2500 rpm perhaps less (in lower gears, light throttle opening).
3. Fix the obvious stuff before attempting the more difficult. If the exhaust is blowing you'll never get the fuelling right. Similarly if the engine is running cool.
4. Have you checked whether the fuel tank vent is blocked? When you open the fuel filler listen for an intake of air. Sure-fire cause of poor fuelling.
5. If those don't help, a dyno run might be the best way to detect the root cause.

[Harko]

Sorry to come into this so late, and even more so if none of the following help!  A few observations:

1. They don't all do that. Mine, and others I've test ridden, are quite smooth.
2. 3000-4000 rpm isn't low. Mine will trickle along quite happily at 2500 rpm perhaps less (in lower gears, light throttle opening).
3. Fix the obvious stuff before attempting the more difficult. If the exhaust is blowing you'll never get the fuelling right. Similarly if the engine is running cool.
4. Have you checked whether the fuel tank vent is blocked? When you open the fuel filler listen for an intake of air. Sure-fire cause of poor fuelling.
5. If those don't help, a dyno run might be the best way to detect the root cause.

Thanks DDY,

You aren't late... any comments, Q's and A's most welcome.

1) Glad to know this otherwise I would have no idea as to why Honda would design a bike that was so much of a pain to ride.

2) As most of my time is commuting in 30mph areas - most of my time is spent in the 2k to 3k range.  This stuttering is most prevalent at this RPM rang - but I do feel that it is also prevalent at higher RPM but it's just that you don't feel it so much.

3) The exhaust is not blowing however the engine (by all accounts) still seems to be running a little on the cool side.  I did take her for an hour spin and the temp did not rise more than half way to the center (I think this is the first mark after the start of the scale) However, how do I know that the gauge reads correctly.  It might read low.

4) No - the fuel tank is not blocked.  I never get a rush of air when the tank lid is removed and in addition, Honda have had the tank off and on several times now.  They said that the pipe work was fine.

5) If Honda cant get to the root cause - then I will reconsider this - but I might have rejected the bike by then.  As long as Honda are prepared to work on the bike (under warranty) then I will give then a little more time. Apart from this the bike is great and more than good enough to see me through the next 3-4 years before I trade in again.



...

The only fly in the ointment preventing me from progressing this little problem is at the moment we are iced/snowed in and thus I have not been able to get the bike out of the garage for the last 6 days!  :tickedoff: The main roads have been fine - but the local roads leading to the main roads have had a 1 inch layer of compacted/frozen snow on them for all this time. This afternoon we received another 5 inches of snow and there is now no chance I can get my bike to Honda till the new year (Jan 4th when they reopen).

I mentioned to Honda right at the start that there were reports on the forums that the fuel pump could be the cause  but they have said that this is not the problem - the pump is fine. As it is a known problem... I am pushing hard to get this replaced if nothing else to rule it out (In case you are wondering a full tank of fuel V. empty tank seems to make no difference.)

If I don't get back on the forums till the new year... everyone have a  :beer: Xmas and a :yahoo: New Year.

Regards,

Harko

[Richie411]

was the problem ever solved with your bike ?  Sheridan.  ( it's an old post )
RE ...the slowing down and the surges while  in the higher gears , i am having the same problem for the last year .......... i have taking the bike apart twice and changed everything . cant figure it out . mine is a 1000cc 2002 vara . has anyone ever solved this problem ?? I have changed ...plugs , air box, filters, fuel pump and fuel filter , I even changed the carbs, we even tried changing tanks , i even flushed out my tank and added new fuel .
im afraid it might be the breakers yard next .

someone help please.

[Toomanytoys]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but seems sensible to keep it in one place..
My 99 Dero has always been pretty good, no fluffyness or anything..
Of course it's been stood 2 years with all the "fun" that's been going on, run occasionally but not ridden..
Today was the first chance I could go for a ride, 10Lof fresh fuel added to the reserve level of fuel in it, all was well for about 9 miles.. then it started fluffing and farting below 4k..
Struggled back to workshop and drained the carbs, tiny amount of water came out of the rear carb, but no debris..
Been out again and it's terrible.. open the throttle and it pulls slowly, then all of a sudden BANG, the power comes back in... Nightmare at a roundabout in first or second..
Trying to make it do it on a quiet road. Hold the throttle partly open and wait.. rpm build to 4k and bang, power comes back hard.. 
As a guess it feels like a CV slide sticking until enough vacuum overcomes the sticktion.
Any throttle opening above 4k, pulls like a train...
Going to pull it apart tomorrow and check everything, including for air leaks, split pipes, grungy jets etc..

[Toomanytoys]

Well, what a pain to get apart, so many hoses..
Anyway,
Float bowls totally clean and no debris, petrol gunge or water marks.
Front carb idle jet screw has a small amount of gunk on it.
Rear idle jet screw seized solid.. managed to remove but have damaged the top of the casting and of course the screw.. but threads all there and screws back in fine..
Both set to 2 turns out as that's what the front carb was set to.. (can't find my bloomin manual)
All other jets fine.. visually see though and blown through..
Slides move easily and freely..
Float jest and floats all look perfect..
Thermostat operates correctly in hot water.. opens and closes smoothly
Will clean the earth's up on the stat housing
All pipework and inlet rubbers appear to be in great condition..
Coolant was nice and clean..
While it's apart am going to disconnect and reconnect any electrical plugs etc to check for corrosion.

Then put it all back together and see if it's made a joy of difference...

[Toomanytoys]

So, temperature gauge works again..  the earth tab on the stat housing was rather green..
Seemed better until it was nearly to temp.. then went all lumpy again.. not quite as bad as before, but still fluffing and kicking back..
Going to remove fuel tank and balance carbs, may help.. but this does seem temperature dependant at lower rpm.. but doesn't make sense,, sounds and feel like mixture leaning out, but a sensor (only one from what I gather,) would affect it at all rpm surely... ?